Why do Zoras evolve for the windwaker

[Legend Zelda]

The entire overworld of Hyrule was covered in water almost. So these water dwelling beings are implied to have evolved into a flying group of people.
How does this make any sense?

[timoku]

maybe the zora's were fresh water and couldnt live near or in salt water and had to evolve...

[Legend Zelda]

Even with that in mind, from a bioloical and evolution standpoint. It would be easier to evolve with a filtration system in gills then to change the entire anatomy and grow wings lol.

[master link55]

well I usually skip talking in WW so i didn't see things to show that they evolved but they could be not even from zoras the zoras could have died out or something or just fled to a different part of the great sea and the ruto species is not even related..... its just a thought, I could have missed it.

[Yusei]

^ Laruto is the ancestor of Medli (SP?) in Wind Waker and Medli has the blood of the sages in her. So that's how the "explained" in, but we don't know why though. It's a major plot hole in the series, since Zoras could still live in the sea (MM Zoras and OOA Zoras) and even if they could, instead of worshiping Valoo they could have worshiped Jabun which would have made a whole lot more sense.

Then again a Zora could have MATED with another being that became a Rito.

[master link55]

^ Laruto is the ancestor of Medli (SP?) in Wind Waker and Medli has the blood of the sages in her. So that's how the "explained" in, but we don't know why though.

I noticed that...... but when im on something like this, i forget about the most obvious stuff.....

[Yusei]

A really old article I managed to have found on The Hylia may help with the reasoning on how Zora's evolved into Rito and it basically shares the same thoughts I have on the matter.

http://www.thehylia.com/zelda_intelligent_design.shtml


You must find the one who carries on
my bloodline... The one who holds this
sacred instrument...

Nothing can stop the flow of time or the
passing of generations...but the fate carried
within my bloodline endures the ravages of
all the years. It survives.

Bloodline only means you are a relative of that person - it does not denote specie continuation. It is entirely possible, over the time between Laruto and Medli, Laruto's descendants inter-breed with other races (since we don't know the biological limitations of species in Hyrule or elsewhere in the fantasy realm), and thus Medli is descendant of Laruto, yet, but is not a Zora herself nor does she carry a substantial Zora bloodline in her. Still don't get it? Let's say Laruto married a Hylian, and they have a half-Hylian, half-Zora child. Let's say that child marries a Gerudo, and their offspring is a 1/3 Gerudo, 1/3 Hylian, 1/3 Zora. Keep having the offspring mate with non-Zora for a few genrations, over the "100's of year's" between Laruto's time and Medli's, and you quickly see that the amount of Zora' blood in Medli could be a small fraction of what it once was, and her immediate parents and their parents could technically be non-Zora. Thus, there is no "evolution" - it's just breeding, in a sense. There is no substantial criteria for causality in the claim the Zora evolved into Rito based on the above statement from Laruto. People also add in, a total tangent, that Makar is a Korok, and is the new Sage of Wind, when Fado, a Kokiri, was the old one, and that the Kokiri became the Koroks according to The Great Deku Tree. Circumstantial evidence, and it has no direct causality on the Zora-to-Rito argument.

See basically the Zora sage could have mated with another outside race to her own Zora tribe and passed that child down to the father in order to continue her Sage duties. Over time that Zora-outsiderace child would have mated with other races, and overtime their children would have done the same, leading up to what would soon be the Rito people.

[FallenAngelAzazel]

That article forgets to mention the scientific aspect of it.

Zora are a humanoid fish species. Rito are a humanoid bird species.

In real life, a bird and fish could mate, sure, sounds weird, whatever, but they're not going to be bearing any offspring. A human could commit beastiality with a dog, and once again, there will be no offspring. There can't be.

I'm not going to go into the entire aspect of it, but it has something to do with DNA and chromosome similarities. Some species are similar to others when others aren't. That's why, for example, a lion and a tiger could bear offspring (liger), because their genetic makeup is similar, but a fish and bird cannot.

Thus, I seriously doubt the Zora intermingled with the Rito. They could have relationships and all, but I seriously doubt there would be any child bearing.

Honestly, I've always thought the Zora spread out into a few factions. As we all know in OoT, you could find Zora in a number of places outside Zora's Domain. For example, Lake Hylia, Gerudo Canyon, etc. to name a few. So what if during the flood, when the Hyrulians were climbing the mountains, that some were separated and climbed separate areas? Some would climb Death Mountain, which would be known as Dragon Roost Island, and with both the landscape of the island and the climate, over years they were forced to evolve into Rito. Meanwhile, another faction found its way atop another mountain (which may or may not be the top of Zora's Domain/Fountain/whatever), which got to be called Great Fish Isle. Since this island wasn't as drastically different to the Zoras as Dragon Roost Island was, they stayed the same and lived there, until the time of TWW when Ganondorf destroyed the entire island, killing its inhabitants.

And it's not like there aren't clues. Some of the hylian menus around the coffee shop on Windfall, when you translate it, suggest "Zora" food and drink. So it's not like the Zoras have been forgotten on the Great Sea, and last I checked, the Zora aren't exactly in legend. So yep. But at the same time, I believe the Rito are related to the Zora as well. Evolution seems the most likely, even though it's suspiciously fast evolution, only over a period of hundred years, whereas evolution is supposed to take place thousands upon millions of years, but hey, maybe Valoo had something to do with it? He gives scales, after all. I have no doubt he had a part to play in the speedy evolution.

[master link55]

I'm not going to go into the entire aspect of it, but it has something to do with DNA and chromosome similarities. Some species are similar to others when others aren't. That's why, for example, a lion and a tiger could bear offspring (liger), because their genetic makeup is similar, but a fish and bird cannot.

But don't forget its a fantasy game I mean do you seriously think that dragons and pig monsters really exist, it doesn't exactly have to be scientific and also it doesn't exacly have to be a fish and a bird, it could be a slow chain like

Zora x human

offspring x goron (wich i doubt but)

offspring x Deku

offspring x ext ext

and so on and so on untill it makes a ruto. or something

[FallenAngelAzazel]

But don't forget its a fantasy game I mean do you seriously think that dragons and pig monsters really exist, it doesn't exactly have to be scientific and also it doesn't exacly have to be a fish and a bird, it could be a slow chain like

...Common misconception. Just because it's a fantasy game doesn't mean it automatically defies all science. This isn't exactly true.

If the creators really meant for races to intermingle, we'd be seeing more cross-species over 15 games that take place hundreds, even thousands of years apart from each other. Just saying.

Dragons may have existed at one point. There currently isn't enough proof to go for it or against it, but in recent years, scientists have found evidence that makes it seem slightly more than a fairy tale.

As for pig monsters, that can easily be genetically enhanced.

Fantasy works slightly different than science-fiction. Just saying.

[Glutexo]

maybe the zora's were fresh water and couldnt live near or in salt water and had to evolve...

Was it salt water though? (I don't remember.) Heck they could have been in the middle of Lake Michigan.

[FallenAngelAzazel]

Was it salt water though? (I don't remember.) Heck they could have been in the middle of Lake Michigan.

It was never stated, though unlike most others, I don't think it's salt water. People see ocean and think, "Oooh, salt water." No. The water of the great sea is not an ocean, it's rainwater flooding Hyrule. The Gods made it rain.

Last I checked, is rain saltwater? Nope. That's why I believed that if they evolved, it was because of the harsh conditions of Dragon Roost Island.

[PrincessLika]

Maybe the Gods evolved Zoras.. So that they could survive.

[Legend Zelda]

The definition of a species in biology are if the organisms can reproduce and then if their offspring can reproduce as well.

So if the Zoras are somehow related to the Ritos then that means that whatever halfbreed genetic flying freak somewhere in the line was technically just a half retarded Zora species.

[Glutexo]

Maybe the water rose so high that the island are just what's left of the tips of mountains (explaining the Ritos, and the lone Goron), and the Zoras left so that the young Zoras wouldn't go spewing the secret of the Old Hyrule to all the islanders.

[Legend Zelda]

Maybe the water rose so high that the island are just what's left of the tips of mountains (explaining the Ritos, and the lone Goron), and the Zoras left so that the young Zoras wouldn't go spewing the secret of the Old Hyrule to all the islanders.

That doesnt explain the relationship between the rito and zoras.

[Sigma Dio]

Supposedly, the Goddesses evolved the Zoras so they wouldn't find Hyrule. Simple enough.

[Glutexo]

That doesnt explain the relationship between the rito and zoras.

What relationship?

[Yusei]

What relationship?

If you played Wind Waker, you know that Medli is the descendant of the Sage of Earth, Laruto, a Zora. So a Zora and Rito are closely related.

[Glutexo]

Descendant? Or Succesor?

Nothign I've seen says anything about being a descendant.
All I see mentioned is successor.

EDIT: Looked at the main wiki page for the Rito, but that just brings us full circle. :/
So, my answer to the real question: Nintendo just wants to **** with our minds. Where have a heard this before?

[Yusei]

Wikis are not exactly accurate.

RtZu5A9sy54

O great hero, chosen by the Master Sword!
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯

________________________________________
My name is Laruto.
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯

________________________________________
I am a Zora sage. For an age, I offered
my prayers here in the Earth Temple,
praying that the power to repel evil would
ever remain within the Master Sword.
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯

________________________________________
And yet...unfortunately, due to Ganondorf's
evil designs, the Master Sword you hold
has lost this power.
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯

________________________________________
After his defeat at the hands of the Hero of
Time, Ganondorf was sealed away...but not
for all time. He was revived, and he
returned to Hyrule in a red wrath.
He attacked this temple and stole my soul,
knowing that he had to remove the power
contained in that enchanted blade.

In order to return the power to repel evil to
your sword, you must find another to take
my stead in this temple and ask the gods
for their assistance.
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯

________________________________________
You must find the one who carries on
my bloodline... The one who holds this
sacred instrument...
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯

________________________________________
Nothing can stop the flow of time or the
passing of generations...but the fate carried
within my bloodline endures the ravages of
all the years. It survives.
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯

________________________________________
The song you just conducted is one which
will open the eyes of the new sage and
awaken within that sage the melody that
will carry our prayers to the gods.
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯

________________________________________
The door that blocks your way will only
open when the sage plays that song.
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯

________________________________________
May the winds of fortune blow with you.
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯

http://www.zeldalegends.net/files/emulation/dumps/tww/tww_ENG.txt

(ignore the fact it's hosting malware... I think it's a false positive).

[Glutexo]

OK, fine, I won't quote any Wiki's ever again. And when someone does, I'll tel l them they're wrong, kay? :p:D

Joking aside, the Zoras evolving into the Rito would, I think take more than 100 or so years. 100 years is only 3 generations. Medli would only be the great-granddaughter of Laruto.

OoT had no Sage of Earth, so we know Laruto wasn't around at the time of OoT.
That would put her (at best), a daughter of Ruto's generation.

Ruto's Gen (full Zora)>Laruto (full Zora)

We know Medli and... ****.

Where did I get 100 years from?
I made a mistake. It's several hundred years.
I didn't delete of that because I wanted you all to know how far I got before I realized that. XD



Back to a point I can actually make: Doesn't evolution supposedly take "millions and billions" of years? How could they evolve and have all the kinks worked out in that short of time?

I guess, though, they aren't fully evolved, seeing as they have to get their wings from Valoo... Hm... I must think on this. Too late for now, but I'll be back.


*sniffle* I had that argument all worked out too. *sniff*

[Yusei]

THIS. IS. ZELDA. Things in a normal point of view don't happen. So they could have evolved quicker. Even then, there was something I read (http://www.zeldawiki.org/Earth_Temple) sometime ago that the Earth Temple was supposed to be in OOT. The Forest Temple was supposed to be the Wind Temple (http://www.zeldawiki.org/Forest%20Temple#Trivia).

[Glutexo]

THIS. IS. VIDEO GAMES. Yet we still debate all this nonsense anyway. *shrug*

Even then, there was something I read (http://www.zeldawiki.org/Earth_Temple) sometime ago that the Earth Temple was supposed to be in OOT. The Forest Temple was supposed to be the Wind Temple (http://www.zeldawiki.org/Forest%20Temple#Trivia).

Everything I said before I realized I had the amount of years wrong is irrelevant, because I was wrong to begin with. :p

[FallenAngelAzazel]

THIS. IS. ZELDA. Things in a normal point of view don't happen. So they could have evolved quicker. Even then, there was something I read (http://www.zeldawiki.org/Earth_Temple) sometime ago that the Earth Temple was supposed to be in OOT. The Forest Temple was supposed to be the Wind Temple (http://www.zeldawiki.org/Forest%20Temple#Trivia).

HOWEVER, Zelda doesn't defy all science. Evolution is still there, just sped up. Zelda is fantasy, so obviously things are jumbled a bit, but it isn't an acid trip that defies every single law of science.

And there was never any Earth Temple in OoT. At least not in data form. With the Wind Temple, there's speculation. But OoT's Forest Temple was supposed to be the Wind Temple (with a different Forest Temple elsewhere) and the Ice Cavern was supposed to be the Ice Temple. And then there were other mini-areas like the supposed Unicorn's Fountain, etc. But never any indication that there was an Earth Temple.

Although, before Master Quest came out on the Gamecube, it was known as Ura Zelda being developed on the (failed) 64 DD. Master Quest is, unknown to most, a half-assed product. Ura Zelda was original Master Quest, and Ura Zelda was supposed to have new enemies, items, remixed dungeons, AND new dungeons. I have no doubt that some of the new dungeons would've been the Wind and Ice Temples, and maybe even an Earth Temple since TWW wasn't far behind, as a way to link them. Unfortunately, the 64DD failed, and all they did was made remixed dungeons, and released it as Master Quest.

Wikis are not exactly accurate.

Lawl. Why do people always say this? Wikis are most certainly accurate for data and information. Don't look to it for news. But for data, information, etc. it's one of the best sources. Everyone acts like it's all edited and incorrect. This is not the case, and any wrong information gets changed within 2 minutes, if that. Too many nerds occupy the wikis to make sure nothing goes wrong. Trust me.

[Zeruda]

Almost a month since anything has been posted in this topic, but I though I might just go ahead and </thread>:

Here's something I posted back at ZD last year:
http://knightsofhyrule.org/rito.png
青沼 「時のオカリナ」に登場したゾーラ族の進化した形がリト族で、コキリ族が森から離れてコログ族 になった、と いう設定です。見た目はまるで違いますが、血は継承されています。
AONUMA: We created the Rito as the evolved form of the Zora that appeared in "Ocarina of Time" and the Koroks as what the Kokiri became once they left the forest. They appear different, but they have inherited their blood.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Laruto: "O great hero, chosen by the Master Sword! My name is Laruto. I am a Zora sage. For an age, I offered my prayers here in the Earth Temple, praying that the power to repel evil would ever remain within the Master Sword. And yet... unfortunately, due to Ganondorf's evil designs, the Master Sword you hold has lost this power. After his defeat at the hands of the Hero of Time, Ganondorf was sealed away... but not for all time. He was revived, and he returned to Hyrule in a red wrath. He attacked this temple and stole my soul, knowing that he had to remove the power contained in that enchanted blade. In order to return the power to repel evil to your sword, you must find another to take my stead in this temple and ask the gods for their assistance. You must find the one who carries on my bloodline... The one who holds this sacred instrument... Nothing can stop the flow of time or the passing of generations... but the fate carried within my bloodline endures the ravages of all the years. It survives. The song you just conducted is one which will open the eyes of the new sage and awaken within that sage the melody that will carry our prayers to the gods. The door that blocks your way will only open when the sage plays that song. May the winds of fortune blow with you."
:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
Medli: "Just now, a sage spoke to me. She spoke so gently... There is something... something I must do. Link... Thanks to you, I've been awakened to the knowledge that I'm a sage of the Earth Temple. There's actually something that I can do to help this world. It's incredible... I bet my teacher knew all about this... Link, please... You must take me to the Earth Temple. We must hurry and wake the power to repel evil that sleeps within the Master Sword."
(SOURCE) (http://faqs.ign.com/articles/432/432012p1.html)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fun fact: the Rito tribe was inspired by Akira Himekawa's original Watarara race.

[GioSpy]

maybe the zora's were fresh water and couldnt live near or in salt water and had to evolve...

Yeah but there were Zoras living at the Great Bay Coast in Majora's Mask and that appears to be salt water because it's the ocean :L

[Axle the Beast]

I think Zerudo kind of nailed it here. While I don't put a lot of faith in Miyamoto's statements in general, it seems accurate here and it's backed up by in-game statements. The Rito one way or another evolved or branched off from the Zora. There is no real debate there.

As for the reasons why... I don't know. I answered this question in one of my mailbag videos. One of the things I proposed was the freshwater vs. saltwater idea, but it was sort of debunked by references to the Zora in MM and one of the Oracle games, in both they were in the ocean. However, OoX is kind of a side-game, so it might not be trustworthy, whereas MM is in an alternate dimension. Whether that idea holds water (no pun intended) is pretty unclear.

One of the things with this I think is it was a design choice, not necessarily a logical decision... for example, I believe it would have hurt the storytelling to have a water-oriented race, not to mention the fact that they would have been able to find sunken Hyrule. Plus I think with the Rito and the Koroks they may have simply wanted to make crazy new races, so they designed a new evolution for them.

Though there's always the idea that the Goddesses decided to change them. By the way, don't know if you noticed, but the fins of the Zora and the wings of the Rito look really similar hanging at their sides. :)